What is this country coming to?!

[oldgit]

Stampeding a herd of cows hardly falls into the accepted use of Sirens. Let’s not forget the decision made to force a way past these cattle resulted in the death of an innocent person.

True - but alerting a farmer to the presence of an emergency vehicle on an emergency does.
I don't see anywhere where it says that anyone forced their way past anyone. None of us really know what happened. It may be that trumpton was a prat and left his siren blasting, maybe he gave the farmer a blip if he (the farmer) was facing away, to let him know of his presence, maybe he just rounded a corner using sirens appropriately and was face to face with the animals, it is just as likely that it was the lights as the siren that spooked the cows.
I don't know about the fire service, but the ambulance service has pretty decent driver training which emphasises that no emergency is worth putting yourself or others at risk, for many jobs it wouldn't really matter if you got there an hour or two later, rtc's these days tend to be all or nothing. I regularly encounter horses on blues runs, good training and experience produces good foward vision and hopefully you see them in good time (or evidence of their passing) and common sense tells you to switch everything off and pass slow and wide.
There are specific exemptions (from road traffic laws) that drivers of emergency vehicles can claim, but they must be able to justify them in a court if it all goes wrong.
In my area, because of a couple of unfortunate incidents where police cars have killed pissed people whilst not using their sirens at night (where the lights are much more noticible anyway), most drivers of emercency vehicles now tend to err on the side of keeping sirens on rather than off.
As I said, we don't really know what happened and I'm sure he will not want to drive a fire engine again.

[Masterchief]

I spot a first post! (in this forum at least!) may be worth saying ello in the 'say ello' bit anyways....

Welcome to UKFR mate, drop me an email, let me know how things are going good to see the local Oxfordshire contingent growing

Chief

[RocketRev]

For what it's worth, this story goes back to August 2009, according to the BBC here.... BBC News - Fireman arrest on stampede death in Burtle
So I'm thinking that the arrest only this week must be the end result of some fairly lengthy investigation into the incident.

I've had a look at my copy of the Highway Code (as revised in 2004). Section 190 applies here, in my opinion.....

"190. Animals. When passing animals, drive slowly. Give them plenty of room and be ready to stop. Do not scare animals by sounding your horn or revving your engine. Look out for animals being led or ridden on the road and take extra care and keep your speed down at left-hand bends and on narrow country roads. If a road is blocked by a herd of animals, stop and switch off your engine until they have left the road. Watch out for animals on unfenced roads."

Given that drivers of emergency vehicles must abide by the highway code, except where an exemption exists, this section of it could be rather significant to the case in question.

In a written answer given in the House of Lords on 15th Jan 2004, Lord Davies of Oldham said.... ( http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Motor...tion95423.html )

Drivers of emergency vehicles are subject to the rules of the Highway Code, many of which are legal requirements.

However, Section 87 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 exempts drivers of vehicles used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes from speed limits in an emergency. The Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations 1997 give qualified exemptions from signals at puffin and pelican crossings to vehicles used for fire brigade, ambulance, national blood service and police purposes, and the Traffic Signs Regulations 2002 give similar qualified exemptions from other red light signals and keep right/left arrows to vehicles being used for fire brigade, ambulance, bomb or explosive disposal, national blood service or police purposes.

On its website here http://www.dorsetfire.co.uk/index.php?ref=447 Dorset Fire and Rescue Service says:-

Our emergency vehicles have to comply with the Highway Code too, but there are a few exceptions. In emergency situations AND it is safe to do so, we are exempt from:

• Speed limits.
• Stopping at red lights (including pedestrian crossings and motorways).
• Following “keep left” and “keep right” signs.

We can:

• Use audible warnings at anytime.
• Park vehicles on the wrong side of the road at night.
• Stop the vehicle wherever needed.

I'm interested in the claim to be allowed to use audible warning at anytime - as long as it's safe to do so. And I'm wondering if Highway Code 190 gives a strong indication that it's not safe to do so when with a herd of animals.

Anyway..... let's remember that this is an ongoing case following a tragic accident that's bound to have emotionally affected the dead man's family and also the fire engine crew. It's also a case that may yet end up in court. So it would be prudent for us to be caring and careful how we discuss it.

[oldgit]

The highway code is a funny old thing. Some of it is advice / guidance, some of it is rules which help the system to work, and some of it is the law. It is written quite precisely and if it says must / must not - that generally refers to the law.
Eg tyres must be correctly inflated
It also says such things as you should have enough fuel for your intended journey - this is not law, it is sensible but I like to feel that if I chose to ignore it I can - I can always refuel enroute. What is the law is clear but it is not always easy to distinguish between the 'rules' and the 'advice'
As far as audible warnings go, anyone can use an audible warning (horn) whilst moving, it means 'I am here', the specific exemption is for audible warnings at night in built up areas, 11.30pm - 7am I think!!!
Anyway
I suspect that in many cases if you use lights and sirens you risk frightening animals and small children (bit like fireworks) and if you don't use them you risk coming into conflict with other road users unaware of your presence, for instance wiping out a cyclist wearing earphones. As someone said, damned if you do etc. (can I say that to a rev?)
If this driver is found guilty (ie he is deemed negligent because of using audible/visual warnings in the countryside) and it turns out that he didn't do anything stupid or malicious or reasonably foreseeable, many more emergency vehicles will be running routine to jobs rather than on the lights. That would be excellent from my point of view, unless of course it was a member of my family who was choking or whose house (or store!!!!) was on fire.
PS rev - that was my first post and you didn't say hello - do I need to do it formally?
Chief - I will email you.

[RocketRev]

Originally Posted by oldgit

damned if you do etc. (can I say that to a rev?)

No rule against it, as far as I'm aware. And I can handle it.

PS rev - that was my first post and you didn't say hello - do I need to do it formally?

I was waiting to see if you picked up on Meggsy's suggestion to introduce yourself in "New Members - say hello". Then I could put my traditional welcome there...... if I hide it in here, I'll get teased by someone if they can't see it there. Besides, I don't want to break any Forum Code by mentioning lit portfires in a non-pyro area! Still..... damned if I do, damned if I don't..... so....

Welcome to the forum, Oldgit. Light up a portfire and join in the fun.




BTW.... I once had cause to be a passenger in an ambulance.... the crew teased me that I'd used their entire supply of entonox on the journey and they'd transfer me to the hospital's super economy sized cylinder in A&E.

[PyroS]

Whilst we're on the subject of firemen, here's our boys doing what they do best. Taken less than an hour ago just three doors down. The guy fell asleep with the chip pan on. Kitchen completely gutted down to the brick and the living room was on it's way up before he awoke.

[Masterchief]

Photo taken by 'STEALTH SHOE CAM'

[sultanbrown]

I was thinking more:

Chip pan? Check.
Terrace? Check.
Resident can't afford tripod? Check.

It's the North!!!

Do I win a prize?

On a more serious note, deep fat fryers can be had for as little as £11.49, it really is money well spent.

Mmmmmmmmmmm, proper chips.

[Masterchief]

Very short resident!

Yeah i think its BS now that they cut out at a certain temp

[Signum]

With ya both here, been trying to work out why would a photo be taken like that.....

......i did wonder if it was a case of fireman told resident to get back, resident gave it the old sneeky phone pic whilst pretending to hold it down etc? Strange none the less.